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Technique is mastered over a period. That is why stripping back the weights (in any gym or fitness program) are important. Working from base allows body correction of technique by applying large weight numbers (e.g. for lunges) over a peiod of time and being able to strip back to no weights (e.g. no bar allows technique correction.) It is the basis of well-designed (gym programme.) you add weights over a period of time when you have mastered correct technique. If needed you can strip back the weights to work on the base (sometimes) then via progression you are able to build on previously learned (motor patterns) and to correct (issues in wrong motor pattern movement) with the execution of exercise. In adding or increasing weights is like a graduation to the next level (when you have learned the right movement) and applying this to your new weight goals and levels. Body correction is an issue and using self-judgement is an issue. By facilitating judgement (learning new motor patterns) and correcting previous motor pattern (unlearned incorrect movement) and applying (body correction) and new (motor patterns) building this from base one is able to increase weights and exercise correctly. Which is Periodisation of training using Resistance Training Principles.

Thats my view-point through what I have learned over 10-years or so it works for me :) I use the term body correction you could use posture correction instead it works for me,

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ck1-:

Am I reading that right? You use the same weight for chest as for warm up?

Frankly I haven't had a need for additional chest strength until the last three or so months (I just realized while responding to last post of yours).

Starting about three months ago, 100mtr "wheelbarrows" were added to our outdoor circuits class.  A partner holds your legs like the handles of a wheelbarrow while you mimic the wheel by walking on straight arms and hands.  Usually we do this twice about 15min apart - 100mtr bearcrawls and crabwalks in between.

I can only make it about half way now before my chest and shoulders give out, while maybe a quarter of class makes it all the way, and the rest somewhere between me and them.  Okay, maybe I'm not dead last, but close.

Increasing my chest track weight would probably help me go farther since it's an endurance track.  Still illustrates my point of having a goal outside of just BP.

Rex

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Excuse me... May I motivate you?

RexFury:

Yeah, and I use even less for lunges.  You gotta problem with that?  Anyway, I state as much in the post above.

Have I got a problem with that? No - but then you're not in my class, ergo it's not my problem... Do you use less weight than your warmup in other tracks? Do you understand the purpose of warming up?

RexFury:

Put two instructors side by side, one with 20kg and the other with 40kg, which will have the better technique, what is different between the two,  which develops less muscle skills?

Well, let's take your sentence apart shall we - the instructor with the best technique will have the better technique - but assuming that you mean 2 identical instructors - well, if they are both capable of performing the squats with good technique then they'll both develop good muscle skills, however, the one lifting the greater weight will get a better workout...

RexFury:

Is your technique mechanically better with 40kg than with 20kg?

No, it's the same - except I'm lifting more weight and getting a better workout (unless of course you believe that squatting with bodyweight is going to burn the same amount of calories and work the muscles as effectively as performing the same exercise to maximum load...

 

Then again, as you've also admitted in your posts, you're not doing BodyPump for the workout... whatever floats your boat!

RexFury:

Starting about three months ago, 100mtr "wheelbarrows" were added to our outdoor circuits class.  A partner holds your legs like the handles of a wheelbarrow while you mimic the wheel by walking on straight arms and hands.  Usually we do this twice about 15min apart - 100mtr bearcrawls and crabwalks in between.

I can only make it about half way now before my chest and shoulders give out, while maybe a quarter of class makes it all the way, and the rest somewhere between me and them.  Okay, maybe I'm not dead last, but close.

Well, one never knows when one will be required to be wheelbarrowed for 100 metres does one...

I've been thinking through Rex's statement about:

"Is your technique mechanically better with 40kg than with 20kg?"

More weight is obviously the goal in the free weight/machine area but here the lifter can do the reps in a slow controlled manner.

In Pump the same weight has to be moved a varying speeds depending on the rep, with the singles being pretty fast in some releases. This requires overcoming inertia and momentum. Since momentum = mass x velocity, it makes sense that it is progressively harder to decelerate, stop and then alter direction of motion with increasing weight. Especially a track with a fast BPM.

Technique is obviously dependent on more than just weight, but it is an important variable. However I wouldn't set a benchmark, as "challenging" weight will be different for everyone.

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The forum member "pipera" is not a Les Mills Instructor, though his posts, signature and profile will claim otherwise.

Since he has been economical with the truth on his profile, read the real facts here.

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speedie:

Billy, I agree with Trancendental. BTW, aren't you the guy with the stuffed wrist? If you are, how the **** can you do that weight for back tracks, or the chest track for that matter? I've seen some heavy squatters in my time, but nothing near that on chest or back with good form.

The alternative is to buy your own heavyweight bar, so you don't use so many weights. I don't know what sort of bars your club has, but at those weights you could be responsible for bending them, and everyone would probably thank you for bringing your own.

Yes, I'm the guy with the steel bar in my right wrist to hold it together.  For the most part the injury doesn't affect my form because of the 5 months of PT I put in after my injury.  It's taken two years to work up to the weight I'm at now and being an ex triathlete with mostly slow twitch muscles find slower reps in BP easier than most.  I've thought about buying my own weights but the club has discouraged me saying they couldn't be responsible if someone else walked off with them :-(  BTW there's a 102 pound woman at my gym who's squating 70 lbs so not unreasonable as a 6' 160 lb male that I should expect to squat 110 or better if the weights were available.

speedie:

Billy, I agree with Trancendental. BTW, aren't you the guy with the stuffed wrist? If you are, how the **** can you do that weight for back tracks, or the chest track for that matter? I've seen some heavy squatters in my time, but nothing near that on chest or back with good form.

The alternative is to buy your own heavyweight bar, so you don't use so many weights. I don't know what sort of bars your club has, but at those weights you could be responsible for bending them, and everyone would probably thank you for bringing your own.

Yes, I'm the guy with the steel bar in my right wrist to hold it together.  For the most part the injury doesn't affect my form because of the 5 months of PT I put in after my injury.  It's taken two years to work up to the weight I'm at now and being an ex triathlete with mostly slow twitch muscles find slower reps in BP easier than most.  I've thought about buying my own weights but the club has discouraged me saying they couldn't be responsible if someone else walked off with them :-(  BTW there's a 102 pound woman at my gym who's squating 70 lbs so not unreasonable as a 6' 160 lb male that I should expect to squat 110 or better if the weights were available.

speedie:

Billy, I agree with Trancendental. BTW, aren't you the guy with the stuffed wrist? If you are, how the **** can you do that weight for back tracks, or the chest track for that matter? I've seen some heavy squatters in my time, but nothing near that on chest or back with good form.

The alternative is to buy your own heavyweight bar, so you don't use so many weights. I don't know what sort of bars your club has, but at those weights you could be responsible for bending them, and everyone would probably thank you for bringing your own.

Yes, I'm the guy with the steel bar in my right wrist to hold it together.  For the most part the injury doesn't affect my form because of the 5 months of PT I put in after my injury.  It's taken two years to work up to the weight I'm at now and being an ex triathlete with mostly slow twitch muscles find slower reps in BP easier than most.  I've thought about buying my own weights but the club has discouraged me saying they couldn't be responsible if someone else walked off with them :-(  BTW there's a 102 pound woman at my gym who's squating 70 lbs so not unreasonable as a 6' 160 lb male that I should expect to squat 110 or better if the weights were available.

trancendental:

I've been thinking through Rex's statement about:

"Is your technique mechanically better with 40kg than with 20kg?"

More weight is obviously the goal in the free weight/machine area but here the lifter can do the reps in a slow controlled manner.

In Pump the same weight has to be moved a varying speeds depending on the rep, with the singles being pretty fast in some releases. This requires overcoming inertia and momentum. Since momentum = mass x velocity, it makes sense that it is progressively harder to decelerate, stop and then alter direction of motion with increasing weight. Especially a track with a fast BPM.

Technique is obviously dependent on more than just weight, but it is an important variable. However I wouldn't set a benchmark, as "challenging" weight will be different for everyone.

speedie:

Billy, I agree with Trancendental. BTW, aren't you the guy with the stuffed wrist? If you are, how the **** can you do that weight for back tracks, or the chest track for that matter? I've seen some heavy squatters in my time, but nothing near that on chest or back with good form.

The alternative is to buy your own heavyweight bar, so you don't use so many weights. I don't know what sort of bars your club has, but at those weights you could be responsible for bending them, and everyone would probably thank you for bringing your own.

 

I responded yesterday but for whatever reason it didn't get recorded so I'll try again. Yes, I'm the guy with a 2.5 inch bar holding his right wrist together. Being an ex triathlete and having done BP for over two years my endurance tends to be greater than most. I'll never be a power lifter because most of my muscles are engineered for endurance (slow twitch) over strength (fast twitch) but my legs have always been unusually strong relative to others of my weight so doing 120 lbs on squats would be a snap if we only had 10 kg plates. Likewise on the chest and press tracks I'm able to do 80 lbs comfortably because of 2 years of BP experience and muscle type. You're right about the bars bending with heavier weight. With the spring clips I can get 4 x 5 kg on each side for around 90 lb total. Because I can't get enough squat weight I normally will run/bike/stair climb for two or more hours before a BP class to soften up the legs but still find 80 lb squats easy. I'll never look like one of the big boys who lift the heavy metal nor do I wish to be. All I want is access to sufficient weights to continue development in BP. Because BP focuses on endurance I strength train twice per week using a combination of Cybex equipment and free weights. Before BP I could never muster any interest to train my upper body but now I look forward to every opportunity.

BillyG:

I responded yesterday but for whatever reason it didn't get recorded so I'll try again.

I can see three duplicate posts (62208, 62209 and 62210) by you above Jason's post - do they not appear for you too?

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The forum member "pipera" is not a Les Mills Instructor, though his posts, signature and profile will claim otherwise.

Since he has been economical with the truth on his profile, read the real facts here.

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This is a problem I have experienced as well.   When I go to the gyms in New Zealand there is never a problem as they are well equiped with loads of tens and heavier barbells.  Most of the gyms in Australia only have 5 kg plates and where I train you usually have to share the 10 kg plates as there are only two sets.   Pump can give you a good strength workout allright.        Too many people train like wusses. When I go over to New Zealand you get an idea of how heavy and hard some people do Pump with strict form as well.  It just has more of a buzz over there.   The way I look at it your form should be spot on at the commencement of a track, as you are working towards a break, I have no problem with loosing form due to exhaustion, and I don't mean training dangerously either.

I did BP70 for the first time last evening and was surprised how easy the lunge track is for me.  Unless you use the same weight for lunge track as for squat track, the squats in the lunge track are like extended breaks.

For me in particular, the squats let me flush out my quads so that I start each set of lunges fresh.  I'll definitely be adding some weight in this lunge track.

Rex

 

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Excuse me... May I motivate you?

trancendental:

BillyG:

I responded yesterday but for whatever reason it didn't get recorded so I'll try again.

I can see three duplicate posts (62208, 62209 and 62210) by you above Jason's post - do they not appear for you too?

Sorry everyone for the duplicate posts.  I failed to forward through all the screens as the responces have been more numerous than I anticipated.  Yes, I see all the dups now ;-(

Can we back up a sec, please? BUN FIGHT? I almost spit up - what on earth is a bun fight? I'm sure it's a Brit thing, but it brought a picture of hot rolls being tossed around - tossers! Elaborate, please.

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Certified Body Combat and Body Pump instructor, Spin certified cycle instructor, Certified Personal Trainer.