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Others have described back injuries well. My response is more about mechanics.

You suddenly increased your weight in this track by 50% from 40 to 60 pounds. Ouch. Add your 6'7" frame into the equation, and perhaps a fast track. This to me is an accident waiting to happen, and I would bet anything that it was a loss of control issue, regardless of whether your disc 'went' doing a clean, a press, a row or a deadlift (assuming it was a single event that resulted in the injury).

Someone as tall as you has to travel so much further in the same beat. We won't get into the 'beat' argument here - I'll assume that you do a clean and press in the same amount of time as the instructor, whether it's on YOUR count or the instructor's.

It might make sense to advise very tall people to shorten the leverage on their deadlift and rows to avoid rushing and jerking. However, you can't apply the same logic to a clean and press. A tall person will have to cover a large range of motion from set position to the top of a press and back down again - all in the same count as a short person. In this case, I wouldn't expect a tall lanky person be able to lift (particularly clean and press) the same as a short stocky person.

On that note, I'd like to see a return of slightly slower back tracks. They work just as well, because there's extra challenge in slowing down the move, and they minimize the jerking that is so rampant. Perhaps the shortass Kiwi choreographers need to grow 6" taller to know what it's like to cover a large range of motion in the faster tracks.

thefitnessguy:

Point 1- your instructor is wrong. Saying that if you can "lift the bar horizontally in front of you, then the bar is too light" smacks of an instructor who has little to no training outside the BP training module. That point was neither raised nor addressed in my training and is nowhere to be found in the manual. Your dumbass instructor is a fool. You can tell it I said so. The overhead presses recruit the medial (side) deltoid moreso than the anterior (front), which is what a front raise does. The medial is a larger head, hence it can negotiate a bit more. While you're mentioning the back track, let's not be kittenish and say the muscles of the back lift the arm in front of the body.

Point 2- the 'back rows' are absolutely not murder on your back. I don't give a fiddler's fart about what your PT says. A row is one of the most functional exercises one can do for their back. We pull and lift things on daily basis (unless one is Lady GaGa, who instead has her warped carnival troupe of dancers do it for her).

Point 3- you manage your own workout. While instructors may guide and motivate, they aren't your keeper. You decide what's going to work best for you and what won't. You've been doing this for several years (indignantly, I must admit). Listen to your own body and know its limits.

Point 4- back injuries are the leading cause of missed days of work in the US. More than 80% of their manifestations are due to improper body mechanics- i.e. you either moved or lifted like a simpleton. Don't blame a program you've been doing for several years without question (save for timing) on something you more than likely did on your own (or in your abs class- whose exercises raise my eyebrows).

I'm glad you're back, but come on, your thread is a little incendiary.

1. Then he is wrong and probably will be wrong still, do I speak to him or his supervisor?  His name is Kenny from National Fitness, Oak Ridge, TN.

2. Not just the PT, but also three Neurosurgeons as well, they all said absolutely NOT to do them even if your healthy.

3. I listen to the instructors all the time, they tell me how to watch my form, what moves we are doing next, and even give pointers like this one that I followed.  For instance "take a break and add some more weights to finish strong on biceps", sure I'll follow along, I trust them.

4. I'm like a damn perfectionist.  I sit tall, walk tall, bend at the knees out of sheer habit, I do no lifting at work, I wasn't running, I was playing DDR hardcore like I always do, and I did a pump class where my calf hurt afterwards (thought it was a sore muscle but after a month and it was constant throughout and got worse, I became concerned).  I kept in mind everything, I bought new running shoes (the same ones I ran in for soo many miles before) and quit wearing anything else.  I even discussed DDR and my PT said to not grab the bar anymore since it put my back in an angle.  I understand that something else could have happened (there were no falls, no single incident where I felt pain in my back [I didn't even know I had a back problem for a long time]).

I mean this to be incendiary because from talking to medical professionals, rows should not be part of a workout and forever I assumed BP was supposed to be a perfect workout.  Thus I state this as a warning "TALK TO A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL ABOUT YOUR BP WORKOUT, ESPECIALLY THE BACK EXERCISES".  If the shoe were on the other foot you would understand, back pain sucks balls.  I was also advised to not put the weight on your shoulder for squats and lunges but my PT said as long as good form is practiced I should keep doing those.  I'm not sold that BP caused my problem, although I'm pretty sure it did, I obviously would really love to know exactally what happened so I don't repeat it, but I'm taking precautions and I STRONGLY SUGGEST you do the same.

I wonder how the 'hold it out horizontally' was phrased since I doubt the instructor intended it to be like a front raise.  I know that I've been cued in the past to make sure that we were pulling the bar up the body with it staying close rather than flipping it up more horizontally. I'm not sure how to make the wrong form more clear - perhaps pivoting from the elbow while it's still around waist level?  

 The underlying message has been that if you have the right weight on the bar, you should only be able to pull it up vertically.  If the weight is too light, it's easier to flip it wrongly.

 However, although I do appreciate how bad back pain can be having seen a number of people go through ruptured discs, if you're following good form with sensible weight, then you're unlikely to damage yourself.  I suspect that doubling your weight was the trigger for aggravating your back.  Of course, if you do have back pain, then yes, it is worth making sure that it's going to be OK before starting or returning to Pump classes - and making sure, once you have the OK, that your instructor is aware of any limitations that you might have. 

HellRazoR:

thefitnessguy:

--- Point 2- the 'back rows' are absolutely not murder on your back. I don't give a fiddler's fart about what your PT says. A row is one of the most functional exercises one can do for their back. We pull and lift things on daily basis (unless one is Lady GaGa, who instead has her warped carnival troupe of dancers do it for her).

---2. Not just the PT, but also three Neurosurgeons as well, they all said absolutely NOT to do them even if your healthy.---

Even if you're healthy? Do these three neurosurgeons even know how a proper back row is done?

thefitnessguy:

Point 1- Your dumbass instructor is a fool. You can tell it I said so.

Point 2- the 'back rows' are absolutely not murder on your back.

Point 1 (my bolding): 

Point 2: agreed. Unless the PT/whoever meant specifically for HIS back?  And sure, they are deadly when not done properly or for people simply not ready for it. But otherwise, & speaking in general? Yep, I agree.

<<<(unless one is Lady GaGa, who instead has her warped carnival troupe of dancers do it for her). >>

Everything thefitnessguy said is true. My first thought was "you upped your weight by 50%?" .

AND - the quoted statement above made me laugh. Thanks!

HellRazoR:

1. Then he is wrong and probably will be wrong still, do I speak to him or his supervisor?  His name is Kenny from National Fitness, Oak Ridge, TN.

Omigod...we killed Kenny! Sorry, couldn't resist...

and yes, this is a very strange way of ascertaining your back weight and not the Les Mills suggested way!

HellRazoR:

2. Not just the PT, but also three Neurosurgeons as well, they all said absolutely NOT to do them even if your healthy.

Really? And did they describe why? Was it, perhaps, because they believe this is the row from the floor which is often shown on bodybuilding sites?

HellRazoR:

I mean this to be incendiary because from talking to medical professionals, rows should not be part of a workout and forever I assumed BP was supposed to be a perfect workout.  Thus I state this as a warning "TALK TO A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL ABOUT YOUR BP WORKOUT, ESPECIALLY THE BACK EXERCISES".  If the shoe were on the other foot you would understand, back pain sucks balls.  I was also advised to not put the weight on your shoulder for squats and lunges but my PT said as long as good form is practiced I should keep doing those.  I'm not sold that BP caused my problem, although I'm pretty sure it did, I obviously would really love to know exactally what happened so I don't repeat it, but I'm taking precautions and I STRONGLY SUGGEST you do the same.

Funny thing - I've been doing Pump for 10+ years and never had an issue from class... Now, I've pulled my back on occasion while chucking the kids around (it's ok, they fell short of the window and survived) but this is due to my own stupidity and I'm fairly comfortable it's nothing to do with Pump...

What I can suggest is that attempting to lift a 40lb (or perhaps even a 60lb) barbell in a front raise to test if it's appropriate as a limit on the back track is a pretty silly thing to do... as is upping your weight by 50% (ever consider that gradually increasing might have been more sensible?)

But hey, it's good to have you back on here Jeremiah... while I rarely agree with you, it's at least provoking some decent debate other than a certain other topic that seems to pervade these groups of late! 

The test is a reverse curl which uses the several small forearm muscles--not a horizontal lift like front raise which uses the anterior and medial delts.  If you can do one reverse curl that uses much smaller muscles, it follows that your much stronger back muscles can use a bit more weight to train.  I don't instruct in his neck of the woods, but I have used this before in a few of my classes throughout my years of teaching--though I always say you could probably increase a "bit" more weight, never 20 pounds at one jump..not in any BodyPump track. 

With all of your experience and knowledge HellRazor..what were you thinking???

Hope you get back to your DDR love very soon.  It sucks to be out of commission.

Applespider:

I wonder how the 'hold it out horizontally' was phrased since I doubt the instructor intended it to be like a front raise.  I know that I've been cued in the past to make sure that we were pulling the bar up the body with it staying close rather than flipping it up more horizontally. I'm not sure how to make the wrong form more clear - perhaps pivoting from the elbow while it's still around waist level?

He said it and DEMONSTRATED it to the class.  It was a perfect horizontal bar, 90degree angle from his body to his arms, straight in front of him.  I was able to do this with 40 pounds, 50 pounds, but not 60 pounds. 

HellRazoR:

... but also three Neurosurgeons as well, they all said absolutely NOT to do them even if your healthy.

"TALK TO A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL ABOUT YOUR BP WORKOUT, ESPECIALLY THE BACK EXERCISES".

There's no problem talking to your surgeons about exercises, but unless they specialise in Sports Medicine (and no, Spinal Surgery or Neurosurgery don't count) I'd be taking their recommendations as just advice.

They are probably confusing exercises that put back muscles under strain with exercises that put the bony and ligamentous structures of the back under strain. If done with proper technique and if neutral alignment is maintained through the spinal column, then there should be no danger at all. The risk occurs when the musculature is unable to cope with the load imposed.

So, by all means see medical specialists for medical treatment, but I'd strongly advise seeing an exercise specialist (i.e: physio) for exercise prescription.

Interesting that your physio then said they were dangerous. Perhaps he/she just meant for you (in which case, right now that is true) rather than in general.

trancendental:

Interesting that your physio then said they were dangerous. Perhaps he/she just meant for you (in which case, right now that is true) rather than in general.

My experience and knowledge?  I know not to go past knees, I know how to keep the beat, I know that I love BP classes, I didn't know much more.

My PT said nobody should be doing them, she said she won't do them, I made copies of a few BP videos (yeah I know I'm horrible) so next time I see her I'll get her feedback on the program.

Oh and it wasn't the abs class, I just went before BP one day because I was at the gym early, it was after I saw my doctor (about 5 weeks into the increasing calf pain that wouldn't quit), the previous time I went to the abs class was probably the year earlier.  That day was when I noticed the pain stemmed from my back, I quit the class and left, and went to a chiropractor the next day since I assumed they worked on back problems.  He x-rayed me and my back was fine, he said everything looked good, but for two weeks 3 times a week he "re-aligned" my body, I have no idea why to this day.

I may go to a BP class tomorrow, it will be my first one in 5 months. 

HellRazor,

Tell us how it goes and how you feel after 5 months break

Have a nice day

tiger75:

HellRazor,

Tell us how it goes and how you feel after 5 months break

Have a nice day

Break my @$$, I still have a pinching in my nerve, but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.  My PT said I could get back into exercising slowly but if anything made it worse to quit. 

thefitnessguy:

Point 1- your instructor is wrong. Saying that if you can "lift the bar horizontally in front of you, then the bar is too light" smacks of an instructor who has little to no training outside the BP training module. That point was neither raised nor addressed in my training and is nowhere to be found in the manual. Your dumbass instructor is a fool. You can tell it I said so. 

 Fitness guy.... i think he was talking about back track right?

I have heard a BP DVD presenter at a quarterly say that if you can reverse curl your back weights then it is not heavy enough. That LM international trainer is wrong too?

Hellrazor,

Have you tried other LM classes, even though I guess you love BP?

Maybe BP is just not for you...