Community

The good thing about the forum is that it makes you think. Even if you don't agree with someone, the process of writing and thinking about it is an avenue for improvement.

Today is my class, I was super conscious of 3/1 squats,  simply because it was front of mind having been discussing it.

So I like it when someone comes on the forum to provide constructive criticism. I like any feedback, it is always an opportunity. But on the other hand, there's no reason it can't be challenged in an equally constructive and friendly way if you feel it needs to be.

I'm looking forward to HellRazors video, only so that I can see exactly what point he is trying to make.

You always have to walk in the other guy's shoes...

HellRazoR:

...  I am an extreme beat freak, I can keep the beat of any song, I can keep the half-beat known as 1/8th note, I can keep the 1/16th, the 1/12th, 1/24th, and 1/32nd (yes 8 times faster than tempo) and I have trained myself to always be extremely on-beat (within a few milliseconds).  

What's 'extreme' about that? Can't everyone do that if they actually even half listen?

I'm a musician, I know where the pulse is. I also know that some instructors miss the odd beat, oh well, life goes on. One or two instructors occasionally miss phrase beginnings, yet the world still rotates upon its axis. A number of participants either don't listen (or don't know how to listen) for the pulse or cheat it a bit (very very few people have actual amusia), but somehow the sun manages to struggle over the horizon the following morning. If I've put more on my bar for squats than my legs seem to want to do by 3/4 of the way through the track on a particular day (I use about 60lbs / 27kgs for squats), I have been known to steal the odd semiquaver, quaver, or even crotchet here or there (especially if I've just done a spin class), yet I manage to go through my life not racked with guilt and/or woe about it.

The odd hemidemisemiquaver here or there isn't going to make much difference to the overall workout. I just ignore it. If it winds you up so much that you can't just take a chill-pill and realise it's not the end of the world, find an instructor who follows the pulse, which most of the ones I've encountered do, or go to the side and back and ignore the bobbing sea of nearly-there heads around you. 

It'd bother me massively in a performance/recording/rehearsal/session etc if someone was coming in spare or clipping notes or playing with a sloppy rhythm - it's a question of whether it really matters enough to get annoyed by, I think.

luvanddaisies:

HellRazoR:

...  I am an extreme beat freak ....  

What's 'extreme' about that? Can't everyone do that if they actually even half listen?

You'd be surprised ... I've seen instructors who are always off time. Always. For years. Every class. They just don't hear the beat. That simple. And when it's that bad, it's a safety issue. Is a missed beat a big deal? Nah. An instant of bad timing? Nah. But consistently racing the beat does risk injury. Plus - it's a basic pre-req! You flunk your video for timing, it's considered a technique flaw! (How these instructors got through their video - don't ask me, I wonder that all the time.)

Anyway, I agree with the overall message of the thread: timing matters, and some instructors timing sucks. Not all, but it's disappointing that even some are (sometimes badly) off.

luvanddaisies:

HellRazoR:

...  I am an extreme beat freak, I can keep the beat of any song, I can keep the half-beat known as 1/8th note, I can keep the 1/16th, the 1/12th, 1/24th, and 1/32nd (yes 8 times faster than tempo) and I have trained myself to always be extremely on-beat (within a few milliseconds).  

What's 'extreme' about that? Can't everyone do that if they actually even half listen?

Well since you asked, I'm no musician but I'm a perfectionist at timing beats of music.  I'm hugely involved in "In The Groove Rebirth" a game that will see arcade release next month, it's a music game so timing is important.  Not only is timing important but timing is CRUCIAL, and amongst a huge community of players around the world I'm recognized as being a synching nazi (synching means timing the beats of the arrows to the beats of the music) I strive to make everything match to within 1 millisecond.  I work with songs that have live drummers (inconsistent beats) and songs that have intentional and gradual BPM changes.  I have never met a song that I couldn't precisely analyze, for songs with steady beats I normally determine the BPM to within .005.  So people who consider themselves to be extremely beat conscious (all the players and other synchers) refer to me as a synching guru due to my accuracy which is why I'm an extreme beat freak.

You can search for ITG Freak and you'll find me I go by HellRazoR, if you need verification, my picture will even be on the credits of the arcade game in case you wanted further proof.

In fact when I do my video, I could analyze the audio track and provide a metrinome that goes to the beat of the music, and I can even set it up to 'tick' along with the moves (first measure tick on count 8, second measure tick on count 8, third measure tick on count 4 and 8, such that there will be a tick at the TOP and BOTTOM of each move).  That would take more effort but I could do it if anyone has an issue with the comparison video, but for now I'm just going to wing the video (not practice it at all).

I'm starting to get paranoid...I work hard to stay on beat and I am...at least, I thought I was.  Hellrazor, I'd like to see your video...are you going to put it on youtube? 

LOL - why pick on just squats - I see plenty of instructors who can't follow the beat for any track... and they've all passed videos!

Laziness much of the time - 3/1 and 2/2 both become 2/1 pause...

ck1-:

LOL - why pick on just squats - I see plenty of instructors who can't follow the beat for any track... and they've all passed videos!

Laziness much of the time - 3/1 and 2/2 both become 2/1 pause...

Squats are being picked on since it's a big motion and easiest to notice, but your statement is true it's almost any track, they do pass videos, and yes 3/1 and 2/2 are both 2/1 pause (it's funny actually after doing 3/1's going into 2/2 and noticing the instructor is doing the same exact counts of the music).  Yes I will put the video on youtube, I apparently can't put web links in forum posts, so I'll just have to tell you the title and you can search for it, it'll probably be HellRazoR vs. Body Pump Squats but wait until Sunday.

HellRazoR:

...  I am an extreme beat freak, I can keep the beat of any song, I can keep the half-beat known as 1/8th note, I can keep the 1/16th, the 1/12th, 1/24th, and 1/32nd (yes 8 times faster than tempo) and I have trained myself to always be extremely on-beat (within a few milliseconds).  

HellRazoR:

 Well since you asked, I'm no musician but I'm a perfectionist at timing beats of music ... Not only is timing important but timing is CRUCIAL, and amongst a huge community of players around the world I'm recognized as being a synching nazi ... I strive to make everything match to within 1 millisecond ... I normally determine the BPM to within .005.  So people who consider themselves to be extremely beat conscious (all the players and other synchers) refer to me as a synching guru due to my accuracy which is why I'm an extreme beat freak.

... I could analyze the audio track and provide a metrinome that goes to the beat of the music, and I can even set it up to 'tick' along with the moves (first measure tick on count 8, second measure tick on count 8, third measure tick on count 4 and 8, such that there will be a tick at the TOP and BOTTOM of each move). 

Now I'm all for good timing, and not skipping or rushing reps. However, at the risk of being critical, aren't you being a bit pedantic? Your abilities sound impressive and few of us could be as discriminating. Therefore as long as instructors stick to the basic beat, and participants are able to follow them, then is the additional finesse really necessary?

I know you are trying to make a point here, but would suggest a little perspective.

HellRazoR:

First video is Body Pump 64 Squats from TaurusJay, it doesn't seem to be in english and I can tell by the amount of weight on his bar he will do a bad job. 

/../

Her bar doesn't seem so bad

 offtopic but just out of curiosity, what do you mean about the weights used by those people you critiqued, why was the guys bad?
 

trancendental:

Now I'm all for good timing, and not skipping or rushing reps. However, at the risk of being critical, aren't you being a bit pedantic? Your abilities sound impressive and few of us could be as discriminating. Therefore as long as instructors stick to the basic beat, and participants are able to follow them, then is the additional finesse really necessary?

I know you are trying to make a point here, but would suggest a little perspective.

Agree ...

Being on time is important. However, we don't have to be too pedantic about it.

There are thousands of other things that are also important - technique, outside of timing. Cueing and pre-cueing. Coaching and advising safety. CRC. A little performance   Timing is definitely important but I'm sure there comes a point where it's taken too far in a quest for "perfection", at the risk of all the other things that must be done to make it a safe, effective and fun class.

Someone else mentioned it, and I'll just agree: I'm totally paranoid now!

I taught a Pump class last night and was so preoccupied with trying to see if I was on beat or rushing it, that I didn't teach a very engaging squat track. But here's what I've personally decided: Much like our musician friend mentioned a few posts up, the sli-i-i-ight pause I noticed at the top of my range of motion is a nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second. It's definitely a pause, but it's insigificant enough that I am not going to lose sleep over it.

After class I tried it witout the pause - the same way I do squats in the weight room: very smooth, absolutely no top or bottom to the move - and it did not capture the level of energy that I would want/need in my Pump class.

When I didn't do the eensy pause, I felt that I wasn't able to coach the squats well enough - I need that nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second to properly coach my participants how to drive up through the heels, stand up tall and tuck the tail under a half inch, to "complete" the squat.

If I were to go totally smooth, hovercraft-style, through the squat track, the energy of the track would lose something. We ARE exercising to music in Pump class, and one of our big jobs is to build hype and get people to push through the hard tracks. I had chosen Voodoo Child as my squat track, and the driving base beat just made me want to add a bit of sharp starts and stops to each squat. It would have seemed really odd to cruise through that track, smooth like Saskatchewan*. It would have been boring, right? Play that song in your mind and picture yourself rolling through the squats smoothly. It doesn't really compute. For me, anyway. 

 (*this is a Canadian reference that I don't expect anyone to get... :) )

There is a fine line between being "off the beat" and having an nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second pause at the top of the range. At the end of the day, we are there to coach great technique - yes, this means getting people to work slowly when the chorey tells us to, making sure they aren't bobbing up quick and locking their knees, and it also means that we have to coach them to tuck in at the top of the squat and ALSO to have just an eensy bit of fun as they crank out upwards of 150 squats ina row so that we can make sure that they come back to class and grow fitter and fitter. There's a lot more involved than just rolling through a bunch of squats for 5 minutes.

Its hard to explain  but... the bottom line is, I'm okay with my nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second pause at the top of my squat. It's more dynamic, which is what a fitness class should be.

Well Said Ecullingham!!  I am teaching BP59 at the moment and I am waiting with baited breath to see HellRaZors video on You Tube as he stated he will be doing that release....I cannot for one minute believe that everyone from participants to master trainers including Glen and Susan are off beat and that this gentleman is the only one who can stay on the beat..I watched the BP squats he referenced on You Tube with ROZ and TAURUSJAY and have to say I didnt see anything much wrong with their squats and also didnt see what he was talking about when he made reference to TAURUSJAYS choice of weights!!

I totally agree that the world will not stop spinning if some instructors miss out a nano second of a beat etc and I would much rather have a fun, motivating, inspriational instructor than someone who was very pedantic about the beat ( although I do hate attending classes where the instructors cannot keep a beat! but by that I mean really cant hear a beat!!!!) 

ecullingham:

There is a fine line between being "off the beat" and having an nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second pause at the top of the range.

Absolutely. And - I don't think that "nano-milli-eensy-weensy-second pause" makes you "off-beat". There is a difference between actually having to wait for the beat to catch up to you before you start the next squat (or whatever move) and that split-second to reset the body.